In Or Out..?

[harv]

I don't think you appreciate how complicated all of this is going to be mate. There are literally millions of pages of bollocks to go through. We've been in the EU for 43 years and EU regulations are ingrained into EVERYTHING these days before you start to think about importing and exporting goods and services, immigration etc.

Thankfully the majority of the member states of the EU will be keen to keep us sweet because of how much business we do with them, they know that the markets of the US, China and Japan in particular are going to be wide open for us in 2 years time.

[Dragontao]

I'll post my full thoughts on this here soon enough, but I voted out. Nothing to do with immigration as such, population growth yes. It was close though. I was wavering, but I dislike the EU as an organisation.

As to the effect on the pound, the effect wouldn't have been nearly as bad without all the scaremongering. If the Governor of the Bank of England hadn't played lapdog to Osborne and Cameron and said what he did after the vote before it took place, the pound wouldn't have fallen as much. Namely that we had set aside the funds to deal with many of the issues.

Similarly, the blatant bullying tactics from the remain lot. Osborne stating just a few days before the vote that there would be an immediate emergency budget following an out vote. If that was the case, why didn't he say that at the start. Desperation measure to threaten people. Backfired spectacularly.

Then there's this who trade issue. They need to trade with us. German car manufacturers have said as much. Next time you do your weekly shop, see how much stuff you buy actually comes from Europe. Cravendale milk for example. Sounds very English. Produced by Arla who, if I'm not mistaken, are German.

The EU needs to change and needs massive reform. It is an undemocratic institution. There was no democracy in it's formation. Many countries, including ourselves, had no democratic vote to enter this political union, the ultimate goal of which is a European superstate.

I've heard it said we needed to be in the EU to drive that reform. To be able to be part of it. If we'd voted to stay there would have been no reform because they'd know they had us by the balls. You only have to look at all the statements now about making it harder for other countries to leave. We'd have been locked in and there would have have been no reform, just more control. OUr leaving is more likely to effect change.

Now you look at Merkel, telling countries not to strike deals with us independently. Forgive me for thinking they lost the last world war and aren't actually ruling Europe. Saying on one hand it doesn't need to be nasty but the two faced (and both of them manly) cow then looking to show other nations what will happen to them if they have the temerity to want to retain their sovereignty.

Then there's the shit I've seen posted on Facebook claiming the out voters have fucked up their children's future. What utter bollocks. If they think the EU and our leaving is the big problem, they need a rethink. Climate change and human population growth are going to have devastating effects within 50 years. Population growth is unsustainable. 330000 net immigration (an Iceland every year!) last year contributing to a population increase of over 500000. IN 10 years if it doesn't increase more rapidly that's 5 million. 25 million in 50 years. Replicated around the world there will be massive environmental damage, mass extinctions of species. Water and food shortages. All of which will lead to war. Not our leaving the fucking EU. As to war in Europe, it's fucking Europe that is antagonising the Russians, courting all the former Russian states such as the Ukraine, with stategic Crimean bases. Imagine America's reaction if Japan said "come on Hawaii, you're nowhere near America, come and join us, sorry America, you're losing that nice strategic navy base as well". Look at us over the Falklands. Different when the boot's on the other foot.

Then there's this supposedly benevolent socialist EU, the organisation that has embraced TTIP despite millions across Europe signing petitions against it. It's all about big business and money.

The world is fucked whether we are in Europe or not. At least outside of it we can make more of our own decisions.

The EU also wanted us for our seat on the UN security council. They had two seats with us. Down to one now, while we still retain ours.

We don;t need to be in a political union to strike trade deals. We don't need to be in a political union toe agree treaties and protocols. NATO, Kyoto, United Nations. So much bullshit. Not that the leave campaign covered themselves in glory either.

There's so much more that was bullshit in the scaremongering that have enhanced the negative economic effects.

We might suffer in the short term, but we'll be fine in the long term, aside from the other shit storms that are brewing.

I must admit, I thought too many would bottle it at the last minute because of the scaremongering. Just like the Scottish did in their referendum.

Speaking about that Scottish bint who would have you believe everyone in Scotland wanted to remain, while over a third of them (38%) also wanted out. This is the result she wanted, despite her feigned disappointment, as it gives her the chance to get her second independence referendum pushed through.

[jman]

    Doesn't sound like you were wavering in the slightest drags...

So you didn't vote Leave for immigration.. but for population growth.. which further on down you confirm that two thirds of which has all stemmed from immigration... LOL.  Nothing wrong with voting Leave to curb UK immigration, but don't try and sugar-coat it!   Don't worry.. I don't think you're a northern racist pensioner   

So as I keep asking harv... what's the plan here... harv thinks we need 3 months to read millions of page of legal documentation before we can do anything.. you think they would of done that before telling you what the UK will be able to do without the shackles of the EU, but nevermind.   OK, we need a new PM, surely it is better to pull the plug as quickly as possible.. the longer we delay article 50, the worse off we will be.

[harv]

The longer we delay Article 50 the BETTER off we will be. The delay is giving the economy a chance to settle down, it's giving us a chance to get political stability for all political parties which will also help the economy and most importantly the longer we wait the more pressure there is on the EU member states to get this done quickly. They want us out asap and the closer to the end of the 2 year deadline we get, the weaker our bargaining position is.

[Dragontao]

  Doesn't sound like you were wavering in the slightest drags...

So you didn't vote Leave for immigration.. but for population growth.. which further on down you confirm that two thirds of which has all stemmed from immigration...

That's what has pissed me off with the "remain" lot, making assumptions. I'm more than happy for immigration, if population is controlled at the same time. I'll happily welcome hardworking, honest decent folk from anywhere in the world in place of some of the human detritus that infest the lower levels of our society. Our criminals, the chavs who won't work but want 15 kids and plenty of child benefit. Seems a bit unfair on the countries we'd send them too though lol (or perhaps we can just ship them off to fight I.S and help end the conflicts we helped create with our interference and end the necessity for refugees to flee in the first place.

Controlling population growth doesn't mean stopping immigration altogether. Population growth is a global problem. Tackling it has to start somewhere. Continued mass migration and export of economic migrants from 3rd world countries is not going to prevent the disaster that is coming. A fair distribution of wealth would help but a capitalist world won't let that happen. 

Also, interesting article in the Express that the out vote may well have put the mockers on TTIP for some time. A major positive for the out vote if you ask me and plenty of European citizens from other countries signed a petition against TTIP. So the out vote may have done them a big favour. http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/684291/Brexit-effect-EU-US-TTIP-trade-deal-faces-failure-after-referendum

[Dragontao]

The longer we delay Article 50 the BETTER off we will be. The delay is giving the economy a chance to settle down, it's giving us a chance to get political stability for all political parties which will also help the economy and most importantly the longer we wait the more pressure there is on the EU member states to get this done quickly. They want us out asap and the closer to the end of the 2 year deadline we get, the weaker our bargaining position is.

What we need to do as well is start negotiating some good deals with countries outside the EU and quickly. Some good deals with Japan, especially the market for vehicles, for example would make the Germans very nervous. Their motor manufacturing industry has already spoken out stating that they want trade deals. They are very nervous. They sell an awful lot of cars in the UK.

This article from June last year shows how nervous they are. A fifth of all cars produced in Germany were exported to the UK. They don't do trade deals with us, they are somewhat fucked.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f6cda050-20bb-11e5-aa5a-398b2169cf79.html

The EU are playing a game of bluff. Their cards are not as good as the remain campaign and the EU themselves would have you believe.

[Dragontao]

and here's an article from a couple of days back. Ignore the fact it's the daily fail, the news in it is factually correct and supported by the FT article from a year ago, exactly why the Germans are so nervous. The EU needs our trade. Don't let the idiots who bought into the scaremongering tell you otherwise.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3661255/Carry-trading-beg-German-car-bosses-Manufacturers-demand-Britain-allowed-continue-trading-EU-without-barriers.html

[harv]

Yup. Unfortunately we can't do unrestricted deals with the likes of the States, China and Japan until we're actually out of the EU. There are currently restrictions in place for all member states of the EU that prevent one country from getting an advantage over another. It wouldn't surprise me if negotiations for these deals are currently being done or will be done under the table ready to set in place the very second we're out.

And you're certainly right about the EU bluffing, they also did this when Cameron was trying to negotiate with them recently...and look where that got them lol

The EU have never respected the UK, particularly the Frogs and Krauts, and now this arrogance is going to kill it. It's only a matter of time before other countries have their referenda and either vote to ditch the Euro or leave the EU altogether.

My money for the next countries to go will be (in no particular order) Sweden, the Czech Republic, Greece, the Netherlands, maybe France, maybe Italy and maybe Spain.

And like I've said before the funniest thing will be if the Jocks go 'independent' (notice the quotes lol) from the UK, and the EU collapses. They won't be paid the subsidies that they currently get from us, won't get bugger all cash when the EU collapses and will want to join the UK again to survive...which means that we can get a MUCH better deal on their share of the North Sea Oil lmfao

[Dragontao]

We might not be able to do deals (I'm sure there are ways around it) but we can put them in place. Even open negotiations will make certain EU leaders very nervous.

[harv]

Yup, that's why I said it would be under the table. Expecting dodgy meetings in service stations with dirty macs, trilby hats and shades during these next couple of years lol

Both the FTSE 100 and 250 soared after a few statements from the Governor Of The Bank Of England today, but the pound dropped a bit further. We're going to see all 3 going up and down for a while until the economy and the political parties stabilise. Give it a couple of months and we'll see where we stand in the grand scheme of things post-Brexit result.

And of course the pound is bound to rise when other EU member states start having their own referenda and the Euro starts collapsing.

[jman]

That's what has pissed me off with the "remain" lot, making assumptions.

If I'm making incorrect assumptions then you haven't worded yourself very well... I don't particularly care if you are pro or anti immigration - but you confirm later in the first post that 2/3rds of the UKs population growth came from net migration and as you open with a point of population growth.. it seems clear to me that curbing immigration was a deciding factor in your vote.

However - what does make me laugh in that post.. is the fact you go on about "bullshit, scaremongering, bullying" tactics.. and then use this :
 

Climate change and human population growth are going to have devastating effects within 50 years. Population growth is unsustainable. 330000 net immigration (an Iceland every year!) last year contributing to a population increase of over 500000. IN 10 years if it doesn't increase more rapidly that's 5 million. 25 million in 50 years. Replicated around the world there will be massive environmental damage, mass extinctions of species. Water and food shortages. All of which will lead to war

Now, I'm pretty sure you didn't hear this from the Remain camp    No doubt it was from a "neutral" source.. although I would just add that the 330k figure is mainly made up from non EU migrants and you haven't spoken of the lower than normal emigration figures.  So using these figures as a base for the next 50 years seems a bit of an "assumption" to me.  And if you believe for one second that the UK is nearing bursting point.. then I'm afraid its you that have been led down the garden path though mate.  There is nothing wrong with a healthy population that is increasing - surely it means the country is doing pretty well... no?

[harv]

Immigration was one of the factors for my vote I'm unashamed to say. I'm fully aware of how important some immigrants are, there are plenty of them keeping the NHS running for starters, but our Dole offices, Housing Benefit offices, GPs, schools, hospitals and dodgy building sites can only deal with so many

The biggest factors for me though were the amount of money we give the fuckers every year without getting bugger all back all these years, the inability to do decent business with the States, China and Japan amongst others and the fact that these fuckers are dictating our laws these days.

More than anything I'm looking forward to seeing us being able to buy electronic goods for decent prices for the first time in donkey's years. Should take 3-5 years I reckon but it will be worth it.

[Dragontao]

That's what has pissed me off with the "remain" lot, making assumptions.

If I'm making incorrect assumptions then you haven't worded yourself very well... I don't particularly care if you are pro or anti immigration - but you confirm later in the first post that 2/3rds of the UKs population growth came from net migration and as you open with a point of population growth.. it seems clear to me that curbing immigration was a deciding factor in your vote.

Again Not true. Reading into it what you want as many idiots do. As I said. Happy to have 330000 immigrants if we ship out 330000 people as well. It's about curbing population increase and it's a worldwide issue.

However - what does make me laugh in that post.. is the fact you go on about "bullshit, scaremongering, bullying" tactics.. and then use this :
 

Climate change and human population growth are going to have devastating effects within 50 years. Population growth is unsustainable. 330000 net immigration (an Iceland every year!) last year contributing to a population increase of over 500000. IN 10 years if it doesn't increase more rapidly that's 5 million. 25 million in 50 years. Replicated around the world there will be massive environmental damage, mass extinctions of species. Water and food shortages. All of which will lead to war

Now, I'm pretty sure you didn't hear this from the Remain camp    No doubt it was from a "neutral" source.. although I would just add that the 330k figure is mainly made up from non EU migrants and you haven't spoken of the lower than normal emigration figures.  So using these figures as a base for the next 50 years seems a bit of an "assumption" to me.  And if you believe for one second that the UK is nearing bursting point.. then I'm afraid its you that have been led down the garden path though mate.  There is nothing wrong with a healthy population that is increasing - surely it means the country is doing pretty well... no?

You put the ass in assumption. Did I mentiuon where the immigration was coming from. It doesn't matter to me be because immigration by itself is not the problem. As I said, the EU as an organisation is undemocratic and my problems with it are nothing to do with immigration. As for being from a neutral source. Try the Office of National Statistics. A governement office yes, but very neutral in such matters. They do not serve any party and only collate factual information. 

That statement you refer to as scaremongering is nothing to do with remain or leave. The information that drives those assertions comes from well respected scientific and NGO sources. A degree in environmental science, plenty of study of population statistics and environmental issues give me a solid grounding. It is not scaremongering to talk about the effects of increased population growth. The planet is finite. We cannot have continued  population growth at these levels without resources running out and suffering the consequences of that. HUman population by 2050 is projected to reach 9.7 billion (check out the UN statistics), some estimate between 11 and 12 billion by 2100. That's with population growth supposedly slowing. Population growth is unsustainable and if people think the potential effects of that are scaremongering, given that water stress, food shortages and the fact it is widely accepted we are undergoing a mass extinction event as a result of anthropogenic action are already happening, then they are burying their heads in the sand. Africa is expected to see the largest population rise, with half of that population being in Africa. That's without the potential for sea level rise to reduce the land available for that increasing population to live on.

If you don't think there will be wars, then carry on keeping your head up your backside and living in your state of denial.

http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/news/population/2015-report.html
http://www.iucnredlist.org/
https://www.ipcc.ch/index.htm
http://www.populationmatters.org/
http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2016/05/03/climate-driven-water-scarcity-could-hit-economic-growth-by-up-to-6-percent-in-some-regions-says-world-bank

Water scarcity, exacerbated by climate change, could cost some regions up to 6 percent of their GDP, spur migration, and spark conflict, according to a new World Bank report released today.

[harv]

Well I'm doing my part by not reproducing

[Dragontao]

That's helping the gene pool as well as the environment Harv.