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Author Topic: Theological Ramblings.  (Read 17792 times)

Offline Dragontao

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2012, 01:30:13 AM »
Theories are explanations as to how things work. Think they sometimes get theory and hypothesis confused. :P

A high percentage of theories start out as a hypothesis, with something being observed and with no knowledge of the mechanisms involved, a hypothesis will be formulated to test the observed phenomena. The hypothesis is considered the starting point, the theory the end point (though there's normally the reason someone has come up with the hypothesis in the first place that's the starting point, which could be considered an untested theory, or simply an idea or notion). It's only after the hypothesis has been proven and widely accepted it is really a fully fledged theory. the use of "new theories hypothesised as more evidence is found and knowledge expands"  was pointing to the fact that existing theories lead to new hypotheses with additonal knowledge and understanding, and new theories result from these hypotheses, but just worded very badly.

It's the use of theory that is probably most misused as theories have to have undergone testing and been accepted. For example somebody might see somebody else get punched in the head. As a result they might then say to their friend "I have a theory that if I punch you in the head, it's going to hurt". Technically not a theory because it hasn't been tested (though there's a good chance we know it's going to be true so it's our idea or untested theory and starting point). So a hypothesis to test the idea that a punch in the head will hurt can be formulated (normally the null hypothesis that's tested). Once the testing has been completed and results confirm that it does actually hurt. the theory can be accepted. (it's a poor analogy, I know, but it's late and I couldn't think of a better one).

Science is always looking to improve and theories that are widely accepted can also lead to a new hypothesis as scientists look to poke holes in existing theories, possibly as a result of advances in science and new knowledge.

It's this continual re-testing of our sicentific knowledge that allows people such as creationsists to latch on to something and try to debunk it.

A good example of this is Darwin's (and Wallace's) theories on Evolution. At the time they came up with the theory, pretty much in parallel, science wasn't advanced enough to test much of the theory, other than basic examination of skeletal and fossil remains, basic taxonomy and observations of similarities/differences in species. The theory hadn't really undergone much rigorous scientific testing without the ability to fully study genetic information. At that time no genomes had been mapped and methods such as cladistics weren't around either. So new hypotheses have been formulated over time to further test the original theory and clarify it. 

Most of what the creationsists try and debunk about evolution is based on Darwin's original theory and the flaws resulting from the lack of additonal knowledge at that time. They latch onto the holes poked in the theory as a result of new knowledge, testing and the work of modern day evolutionary biologists. They can't wait to shout about the flaws in Darwin's theory of evolution that scientists have found but they happily ignore the advances in knowledge and science that have lead to improvements in evolutionary theory. Some still look at this and try and debunk it because scientists continue to try and improve the theory and gain more knowledge.

All the while they totally ignore the fact that there is no scientific evidence to back up their alternate view of the origins of man, no tested hypothesis to allow the theory of God's creation to be accepted. Their acceptance of the existence of God is based purely on their belief that it is true.
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Offline jman

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2012, 06:18:42 AM »
I'm a devout atheist too thank god  ;D ;D

One thing I have learnt though, never discuss religion (or politics) with your friends, it just causes arguments, I just let them get on with it, although I do like talking to jehovahs, they are so funny to argue with.

One thing I hated about living in east London though was the amount of street preachers there were who would actually berate you in public for being a "non believer", you get it shoved down your neck everywhere there, imagine an atheist doing that and telling you not to believe, he'd be shot!!

Offline Dragontao

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2012, 07:35:43 AM »
On the Fulham Road, if you're walking from Fulham Broadway direction towards Satmford Bridge, on the right side of the road there always used to be some God botherer with a megaphone preaching all kinds of crazy stuff about how Jesus was coming back and was going to save us amongst other things, oviously there in the hope he was going to attract some converts (some hope, surely he must have known Chelsea supporters are a Godless bunch and we worshipped false Gods anyway).

One Saturday as I walked past him I started a chant of "There's only one Charles Darwin ... ", which quite a few other supporters joined in.  ;D

It didn't shut him up though.  ???
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Offline harv

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2012, 10:41:53 AM »
When I first moved to London there were a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses that used to keep on bothering me and my flat mates, both women. Best way to stop female Jehovah's Witnesses from bothering you is to answer the door naked or semi naked. Answered the door in my boxer shorts once and invited them both in and they didn't bother us again lololol ;D
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Offline Dragontao

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2012, 12:26:32 PM »
When I first moved to London there were a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses that used to keep on bothering me and my flat mates, both women. Best way to stop female Jehovah's Witnesses from bothering you is to answer the door naked or semi naked. Answered the door in my boxer shorts once and invited them both in and they didn't bother us again lololol ;D

I think you in your boxers might have had that effect on all women, not just Jehovah's lol.  :P
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Offline ancelotti

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2012, 01:04:08 PM »
I'm a devout atheist too thank god  ;D ;D

One thing I have learnt though, never discuss religion (or politics) with your friends, it just causes arguments, I just let them get on with it, although I do like talking to jehovahs, they are so funny to argue with.

One thing I hated about living in east London though was the amount of street preachers there were who would actually berate you in public for being a "non believer", you get it shoved down your neck everywhere there, imagine an atheist doing that and telling you not to believe, he'd be shot!!

I share that problem! Many of my friends are Muslims or Christians (and I mean HARDCORE Christians!) so discussion on those topics is a no-go otherwise they get really offended. I've always thought of myself as an agnostic just because atheism seems a little dogmatic. Maybe I'm just too moderate.  :P

Offline harv

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2012, 01:53:16 PM »
When I first moved to London there were a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses that used to keep on bothering me and my flat mates, both women. Best way to stop female Jehovah's Witnesses from bothering you is to answer the door naked or semi naked. Answered the door in my boxer shorts once and invited them both in and they didn't bother us again lololol ;D

I think you in your boxers might have had that effect on all women, not just Jehovah's lol.  :P

That's what my flat mates said too :'(

Another extreme method would be to answer the door with an upside down cross painted on your chest and a dead chicken or goat in your hands, and telling them that they're just in time for Black Mass lol ;D
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

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Offline Dragontao

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2012, 02:14:13 PM »
Is being an agnostic about keeping an open mind or are they people who are hedging their bets just in case.

I'll keep an open mind about a lot of things such as supernatural phenomena or life on other planets. Althouh extraterrestrial life is something I believe must be out there. with the vastness of space, although it has little more concrete proof at present than the existence of some omnipotent being.

Let's face it, if God exists, he/she/it is not only a non benevolent piddle taking b'stard. What benevolent God would make stuff that tastes good be unhealthy. Taking an agnostic viewpoint for just a second, doughnuts! Damn you to hell, you miserable pee taking git God.

He/she/it is also a hypocrite.

Though shalt not commit adultery and you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife! Oh ho, so it's okay for God to knock up another man's wife and encourage it, his get out clause, well it wasn't my neighbours wife, just some shepherd dumb enough to believe his wife's cock and bull story (virgin my backside).  John Terry is obviously just a devout Christian who was (allegedly) taking a leaf out of his God's playbook. Genesis annex 1: Playing away from home and getting a right result.

Then there's the seven deadly sins. Envy eh! Hmm, in commandment number two doesn't God say "for I am a jealous God".
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 02:17:17 PM by Dragontao »
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Offline ancelotti

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2012, 02:36:00 PM »
Is being an agnostic about keeping an open mind or are they people who are hedging their bets just in case.

Just in case of what? :P

If the "second coming" were to happen, all non-believers would apparently get a second chance to accept God. Otherwise, all of us in this thread are going to hell for eternal suffering! :o (Imagine spending an eternity listening to Harv rave about Nintendo products!)

The Greeks grew out of believing in their gods after making significant advances in the field of science (one of the emperors also banned pagan worship which helped!). Maybe we'll do the same, one day.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 02:37:41 PM by ancelotti »

Offline harv

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2012, 02:44:04 PM »
 :'(

Edit: And it's only this console gen and this portable console gen that I've been harping on about Nintendo products. Generally I'm more of a Sony fanboy tbh going by the last portable gen and the last two home console gens. 8)

The Wii was the first Nintendo home console I've bought and the 3DS was the first Nintendo portable console I've bought.

I'm still hoping that Sony are going to see sense and go back to the ridiculously successful business model of both the PS1 and PS2, high spec consoles are never the market leaders and I can't see that changing next gen either. :-\

The PS4, going by the target specs given to developers, is going to be the Gamecube equivalent in terms of power. I really can't see why the decision makers at Sony haven't opted for a console on par or marginally more powerful than the U. This would give them a licence to print money and put Microsoft's plans for the 720's marketshare on the back foot. :-\

Anyway, that's a discussion for the other thread I guess lol ;D
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 02:57:00 PM by harv »
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

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Offline Dragontao

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2012, 03:05:41 PM »
I'm still hoping that Sony are going to see sense and go back to the ridiculously successful business model of both the PS1 and PS2, high spec consoles are never the market leaders and I can't see that changing next gen either. :-\

... and City weren't ready to win the title.  :P
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Offline harv

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2012, 03:41:31 PM »
I'm still hoping that Sony are going to see sense and go back to the ridiculously successful business model of both the PS1 and PS2, high spec consoles are never the market leaders and I can't see that changing next gen either. :-\

... and City weren't ready to win the title.  :P

Meh, they only won because we threw it away lol :P
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever

Offline Momo

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2012, 08:41:03 PM »
Is being an agnostic about keeping an open mind or are they people who are hedging their bets just in case.

Just in case of what? :P

If the "second coming" were to happen, all non-believers would apparently get a second chance to accept God. Otherwise, all of us in this thread are going to hell for eternal suffering! :o (Imagine spending an eternity listening to Harv rave about Nintendo products!)

The Greeks grew out of believing in their gods after making significant advances in the field of science (one of the emperors also banned pagan worship which helped!). Maybe we'll do the same, one day.

Pascal's Wager is something I would imagine would be attractive to an Agnostic, personally I think it is a real cop-out, although it could possibly be something of a comfort to certain individuals.
Now if there is a God he'll know your covering your own arse, so you're goosed anyway.
Not for me thank you.
To me it seems to be cowardly and a bit obscene to be asked or forced to lie when you're on your death bed.

Harking back to an earlier comment about Atheism being dogmatic, for me it is about as far away from dogma as you can get, lets leave that to the religious organisations, it's the dogma that scares intelligent people away from this superstitious nonsense, which has got to be a good thing surely. 
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 08:51:12 PM by Momo »

Offline ancelotti

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2012, 10:49:54 PM »
You've commented exactly what my thoughts are on that video. lol

If all agnostics really were of that viewpoint then any god would doubtless be aware of it and see it as just as wrong/sinful as actively denouncing him. Possibly moreso as they'd be trying to fool him!

Trying to prove God doesn't exist, to me, is dogmatic. It's impossible to achieve and I just think people are wasting their time by trying to do so. I try to concern myself with more important things in life than worrying about the various deities people believe in. :P Although, if Ganesh really did exist, that'd be pretty funny.

Offline Dragontao

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Re: Theological Ramblings.
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2012, 12:11:06 AM »
Trying to prove God doesn't exist, to me, is dogmatic. It's impossible to achieve and I just think people are wasting their time by trying to do so.

The onus is on the religious fraternity to prove that their God does exist but they have no evidence whatsoever to back up the existence of this omnipotent being. It shouldn't be on those who don't believe to prove he doesn't exist because there is absolutely no need to do so because of the complete lack of proof of God's existence in the first place.

I don't believe that most atheists do try to prove that God doesn't exist. I don't know any who take that approach. I'd rather ask for the proof that he does. None is ever forthcoming.

Instead those who believe question such things as evolution by trying to use the fact that science does try and prove hypotheses and theories, and then continually questions them, to try and claim theories on evolution are wrong, yet completely ignore a plethora of scientific evidence supporting the theories.
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