Video Games Thread

[Late]

Resistive is crap - I'm not trying to convince you, it's just true.
I assume you agree with the rest of my post.

If it's resistive it'll be crap, and will be significantly more expensive than current generation controllers.  If it's capacitive it'll be ridiculously expensive if you want to use more than one controller - assuming you actually can use more than one controller. Either way it'll be a lot heavier and less ergonomic than current controllers.
And if the tech is there of course motion controls will be incorporated - however badly it's done. Companies will add stupid pointless features that actually detract from the game just so the tech is used - as has happened with games on any platform before it (wii and vita both prime examples).

Tried GRAW 1 a few days ago - couldn't get into it.
Put Bulletstorm in the machine today,  and thoroughly enjoying it so far.

[harv]

So apart from multitouch, which isn't needed for gaming purposes, how exactly is a capacitive touchscreen better..? Resistive touchscreens are more accurate, can detect and distinguish between different amounts of pressure, can be used both with and without a stylus and are cheaper.

The only thing I can think of that a capacitive touchscreen can do that a resistive touchscreen can't is allow your fingers to zoom in and out. The benefits I've listed above outweigh that disadvantage imo, because a browser, which is really the only app that I can think of that this feature is handy for, can be given + and - buttons on the touchscreen to zoom in and out.

Resistive touchscreens are better suited to gaming, just because it's older technology does not mean it's 'crap'.

Edit: And no, I don't agree with what you've posted. All hands-on reports have stated that the controller is light and ergonomically sound. It remains to be seen whether the U can handle more than one controller but there was a significant power difference between dev kits v3 and v4 and another small increase between v4.2 and v5. They're not selling them separately at launch but when they do decide to do so it won't be any more expensive than a remote and nunchuck combination, there isn't a great deal of hardware inside the controller.

As for motion controls I can see developers having motion controls as an option, like using the controller as a steering wheel or to aim a weapon but the majority of developers will prefer to use the touchscreen feature. Having maps, inventory handling, puzzle solving etc. Rocksteady have some great uses for the touchscreen for Arkham City apparently, and Gearbox have stated that the U SKU of Alien Colonial Marines is going to be the definitive version. All sounds good to me.

I'm just hoping that developers are going to continue to have a remote and nunchuck control scheme for FPS and TPS games. It'll feel like going back to the Stone Age after using superior pointer controls for so long.

Another Edit: Have just started playing Arkham Asylum and it's a million miles better than the demo which really didn't float my boat for some reason. Looking forward to playing the sequel on the U, using the controller for Detective Mode is one obvious use for the new controller but Rein was singing Rocksteady's praises for what they'd done with it so there must be other less obvious and cooler uses for it.

[Late]

Oh don't make me do this...

So apart from multitouch, which isn't needed for gaming purposes, how exactly is a capacitive touchscreen better..?

If Nintendo intend their next gen console to be used only for gaming they've made yet another monumental screw up. You don't think the screen on the U controller will have a browser, and other apps which would benefit massively from a capacitive screen? Of course multi-touch will be important.
And who's to say multitouch couldn't be used in games? You seem to be under the impression that Nintendo don't use capacitive because multitouch isn't needed - whereas the reality is multitouch isn't used in games because the screens aren't capable of it. And before you say "we don't need it because there's buttons on the side that'll give you those functions" don't bother - that's like saying my car doesn't need an engine because it's got no floor - so I can power it Fred Flintstone style.

Resistive touchscreens are more accurate..

You're hung up on accuracy, but capacitive screens are more than accurate enough. Sure, resistive can have almost pixel perfect accuracy whereas capacitive is more "within a few pixels" but in what games are you going to need to be accurate to within a pixel or two? That's not going to be fun - that's a chore.
I'm surprised at your quest for accuracy when you've spent the last five years extolling the virtues of the wii - which spent the first half of it's life ridiculously inaccurate, and the second half was merely stupendously inaccurate thanks to it's "plus" peripheral.

Resistive touchscreens ... can detect and distinguish between different amounts of pressure

Oooh, that's nice. Gets used a lot, that, does it?
Actually, I've never heard of that, and I can't see how it'd work - unless you had multiple layers of flexible screen - in which case the cost would rise and the accuracy would diminish. You could conceivably simulate the effect with a finger or softer stylus by saying a touch with larger surface area is equivalent to touching harder, but that's going to be a poor approximation of the effect you're touting.

Resistive touchscreens ... can be used both with and without a stylus

You want an input method that's accurate to the nearest pixel and can be used by a finger? A finger that presumably covers several hundred pixels with a touch? How's that better than capacitive? It really isn't.
And using a stylus when gaming on the big screen and using the tablet controller definitely doesn't sound smooth. I can picture it now. I'm cornered in a massive multiplayer FPS war online, and I want to use a smoke grenade to hopefully aid in my escape. I ask everyone to hold on for a minute while I relinquish all control over the right side controls. I'm no longer able to shoot, turn, jump, duck, change weapon, etc - but I do now have a hand free to extract the stylus from it's handy little housing so that I can pick the utility I want from my inventory. Putting the stylus back away I tell the internet folks they're okay to carry on shooting now...

Resistive touchscreens ... are cheaper.

That's the only thing resistive has in it's favour. You can't use that in an argument against me, though, when I was clearly saying capacitive screens are more expensive than resistive ones.
I suspect Nintendo will use resistive - and price will be the main reason. Price is a massive deciding factor, of course - but if you cut corners to save money then you're shooting yourself in the foot. The 3ds would've been more expensive had they included a second analogue stick, so they decided to just use one. Stupid stupid move.

The only thing I can think of that a capacitive touchscreen can do that a resistive touchscreen can't is allow your fingers to zoom in and out.

Tis the main thing, aye - and a major thing at that. Don't belittle it - it's fantastic and is already used well. There's also the tactile factor. Moving your finger across a piece of glass is so much nicer than doing so across a piece of flexible plastic. Urgh - it's like trying to distort the display on your old lcd school calculator. /Shudder.

The benefits I've listed above outweigh that disadvantage imo...

They don't imo.
Opinions, eh.

... a browser, which is really the only app that I can think of that this feature is handy for...

Really? That's very short sighted of you.

... a browser... can be given + and - buttons on the touchscreen to zoom in and out.

Resistive touchscreens are better suited to gaming...

No they're not. And again I refer you to the "If Nintendo intend their next gen console to be used only for gaming they've made yet another monumental screw up" point I made earlier.

just because it's older technology does not mean it's 'crap'.

Just because something's newer and might replace your favourite stuff from yesteryear it doesn't mean it's rubbish or evil. Try to embrace new and superior tech, Harv...


I can't carry on like this, pointing out all the problems in your entire post. It's taken an hour so far and I'm barely a third of the way through.
A brief rebuttal of the remainder of your post:
Light and ergonomically sound? No, it's much heavier than current gen controllers, and much less comfortable and intuitive. That third part will partly be because it's new and different, of course, but the weight and comfort will remain.
If it can only support one controller it's a massive failure.
If it can support multiple controllers but they're over £40 each it's too expensive.
If you need a controller plus a wiimote plus a nunchuck they're taking the piss.
Motion controls are not superior to dual analogue. Most folk find them frustrating and inaccurate.
Arkham City was very good, and most folk thoroughly enjoyed it toward the end of 2011. Not sure why you'd deliberately wait until 2013 to get it.



Edit - BBCode error

[jman]

lol.... certainly agree with late on this...

in fact Im going to piss on your parade a bit more and give you 3 more reasons why the Wii U controller is going to suck....

1.  The thumbsticks are not analog thumbsticks.. they are circle pads.. this means you cant "click" the thumbsticks in and it also means they lack the resistance and smoothness that an analog thumbstick gives you... the only advantage circle pads have over analog sticks.. circle pads are flat and dont stick out of the controller.. woooo!!!

2.  The right hand circle pad is positioned above the buttons.. have you ever noticed that on every dual thumbstick controller ever made, the right hand thumbstick is directly located south-west of the buttons... this isnt just coincidence.. this is design for practicality and ergonomic use... think about it.. playstation controller, xbox controller, gamecube controller, even the wii's arcade controller (or whatever its called)... to put the right hand thumbstick above the buttons lacks foresight and it will feel awkward playing FPS games and the like with these controls.. they only did it to save space.. but the controller is already too bulky...

3. The triggers on the Wii U controller... they aren't analog triggers.. they are just back buttons... so basically they lack the functionality a trigger will give you... (they are not pressure sensitive in other words)... tell me the last REALISTIC racing game you played where a trigger didnt replicate the acceleration function in a car.. how awkward would it feel if you played Forza or Gran Turismo if you just had a GO and a STOP button.

[Late]

Ughhh - I didn't know about the digital shoulder buttons. That's a bit backward. Any idea if that's confirmed for the production model?
I'll lol my effin pants off if Nintendo end up having to bring out a strap-on for the u controller like they've had to for the wiimote and the 3ds.

Good call on the circle pads. Have only had a few quick goes on the 3ds down our Asda, and I really don't like those pads.

I'm not so bothered about the button layout, personally. I loved the ps2 controller but switched to the xbox360 controller easily enough, despite the left analogue stick seeming too high for the first few days. I'd imagine the right one moving up, too, wouldn't cause any real problems.

On a related note, I've been playing on the ds a bit lately, and keep hitting the wrong buttons because A and B are the opposite way 'round to those on the 360. Only really a problem if you're constantly flitting between the two consoles, as I'm doing lately.
Thoroughly enjoying Final Fantasy 3 on the ds, at the moment.

[bealec]

Google have an exclusive on their maps site. Go to Google Maps and select the Quest View to see what Google Maps will look like on the Wii U.

[Late]

lol! 

[jman]

Ughhh - I didn't know about the digital shoulder buttons. That's a bit backward. Any idea if that's confirmed for the production model?
I'll lol my effin pants off if Nintendo end up having to bring out a strap-on for the u controller like they've had to for the wiimote and the 3ds.

Nothings final until nintendo say it is of course... which wont be until E3.. but I would imagine that because the 3DS doesnt have pressure sensitive triggers.. the Wii U controller probably wont either....



LOL.. the Circle Pad Pro - worst hardware accessory - EVER!!

[harv]

Blimey, so much to cover.

Firstly the weight and ergonomics of the controller. How do you know it'sheavier than a traditional controller..? The 360 controller weighs a tonne. And, again, all hands-on reports say that it's light. And it's very comfortable to use. I haven't read any complaints about the placement of buttons or sticks either.

Now for the sticks. They're not the same as the circle pads on the 3DS, they're taller, meaning that you're going to have more precision and they have a ridge around the outside to prevent sweaty thumbs from slipping off. And it remains to be seen whether they're clickable or not, if enough developers request it they'll give them that functionality. If they're not clickable then developers have the option of having crouch or ADS functions as buttons on the touchscreen. I strongly suspect that they'll be clickable when the final design is revealed at E3 in June.

The triggers, according to rumours, are now analog triggers because developers have requested it.

The console and controller we've seen so far aren't final, the console is still in development. In fact, the console on display at E3 was just an empty box apparently with the dev kits hidden behind lol.

And I didn't say motion controls, I said pointer controls when I was talking about FPS and TPS games. If two players of comparable skill were playing each other, one with dual analogs and the other with pointer controls, the player with pointer controls will always beat the player with dual analogs. The only advantage that dual analog users used to have was a superior turning speed but now that pointer controls have evolved fully for the last 4 years that advantage is no longer a factor. They're faster, smoother and more accurate than dual analogs. That isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

Just wait until E3, some of you will end up changing your mind about the U when you see what it can do, see and hear hands-on reports on the final controller, and, most importantly see the games that are going to be available.

[Late]

Not sure if Nintendo have announced the weight yet (I'd imagine not) but early reports said it felt lighter than it looked (which isn't saying much, as it looks bulky). However those early reports were from using an early wired controller with no rumble/feedback. Once they stick a battery and rumble motors in there it's going to be a lot heavier.
I'm assuming they'll add both. It'd be a massive step backward to drop either feature.

Putting virtual buttons on a touchscreen does not compensate for lack of buttons or features elsewhere on a controller. Clicking a thumbstick in is intuitive and easy. Looking away from the action to see whereabouts on a touchscreen a virtual button is would be a pain in the arse. Even if you've memorised it because it's in a very convenient spot it still means taking your thumb off the stick.

I'll agree with your final point, though. There's every chance I'll change my mind after E3.
At present I'm open minded and seriously considering getting one - but that may well change once we have some more solid information (or rather some slightly more accurate guesses and inferences.



I appreciate you're a busy man, but you've neglected to respond to the vast majority of my earlier points. I'll summarise some of the bits you missed, to make it easier for you...
1. Is the screen just for gaming, or might it be used for other purposes?
2. Don't you think multitouch might be handy in some of those other purposes?
3. You really don't think multitouch could be incorporated well into games?
4. Aside from the possible exception of drawing, in what instances would a capacitive screen be too inaccurate to use?
5. Has varying pressure on a capacitive screen ever been incorporated into a game?
6. How could such a tech be possible? (It may be, but I genuinely can't see how, other than the dodgy method I mentioned previously.)
7. If the touchscreen can be used without a stylus is a resistive screen really more accurate than a capacitive one? I suspect it's actually less accurate, as it's more likely to just count the upper-leftmost pixel you're touching, whereas capacitive is effectively using the centre of the point of contact.
8. If you can only have one tablet controller per console are Nintendo ditching local 2 (or more) player games?
9. If you can only have one tablet controller but other people can play, does the player with the new controller have an advantage over the other players? If not, then the controller is pointless of course.
There's loads of other parts of the argument you're falling short on, but if you can offer rebuttal/opinion/insight to the above we're making a step in the right direction.


I'm happy to be proven wrong on any misconceptions I have about the U.
"Proven" doesn't mean guessing at something or retelling a rumour, and then following it with "and that's a fact!", however.

[styles]

Started sky rim.

These games worry me cos of the scale of it. i found a mine and ended up spending 45 minutes in it. levelled up and did a bit of work on weapons forging

lot of gameplay, doubt I'll ever get the time to finish it

[Late]

Heh - I was the same.   After the initial scenes where you end up in Riften I was supposed to go North to Whiterun, but meandered in a NW direction and ended up at a camp (Secunda's Kiss). Probably spent about two hours there, fighting the two giants.
Ended up playing the game for months, and still only ended up doing around half of the obvious quests (and I'd imagine there's a multitude of other stuff I'm not aware of).
I think that's what put me off Oblivion. Too many things to do, too many choices - it just overwhelmed me, and I was scared to make decisions in case they'll cause me problems a few days or weeks later. Never really got going in the end.
In Skyrim though I just adopted more of a "screw it - let's have fun now, and if I miss out on a few things by making bad decisions then so be it" attitude.


My best advice, then:
(1) don't feel pressured to do the quests in any order (or at all) - if you prefer to just wander around and have fun your own way that's fine, and worked really well for me. If you later decide to do some quests you'll find them pretty easy to do, because you're a higher level than most folk are when they do that. And fairly often you'll end up completing quests without realising you're doing so. (For instance, I regularly got quests to find something but it turned out I already had it in my inventory - and my character still has loads of items in his backpack that I can't put down because they're essential for some quest or other that I've never actually started. Tis all good, though.)
(2) don't buy a horse. They're expensive, keep wandering off, die easily (sometimes without you noticing) and don't actually speed you up all that much.
(3) save frequently. It's bloody annoying if something goes disastrously wrong and your last save was a few hours back.

[harv]

1) It's primarily for gaming but it'll also be handy for other uses such as a browser, drawing, writing and viewing messages, viewing photos...the list is endless. And whilst a multitouch capacitive screen would be better for browsing and zooming in and out of photos it would be useless for writing and drawing purposes. I'm expecting a SwapNote equivalent on the U which would be useless unless you want your messages to look like pants. But primarily the touchscreen is going to be used for gaming purposes, it is a game console after all.

2) See above. Why would you need multitouch for writing or drawing..? Why (apart from zooming with your fingers) would you need multitouch for viewing pictures..? Reading manuals? Reading game guides? It isn't necessary.

3) Again, I can't think of an instance where having a multitouch touchscreen will be necessary in a gaming application. Multitouch is only used in smartphone gaming because you don't have sticks, buttons and triggers.

4) Drawing and writing are the only ones I can think of, but there the only times I'd use a stylus over my finger. The thing is that this is an option, and one that you don't have with a capacitive touchscreen.

5) The 3DS has a pressure sensitive touchscreen and so does the DSi as far as I remember. If their last two handhelds have pressure sensitive touchscreens I can't see why the U controller won't have one.

6) No idea how they do it

7) My point was that it's more accurate when using a stylus, they're both as bad as each other when not using one

It remains to be seen, I suspect that part of the power jump between v3 and v4 dev kits was due to implementing the use of 2 controllers. And no, They're not ditching local multiplayer. They're adopting assymetrical multiplayer - one player having the touchscreen controller and up to 4 opponents using remote and nunchuck controllers.

9) Yes, during assymetrical multiplayer the player using the touchscreen controller has an advantage, we've seen how this can work during demos of Chase Mii and Battle Mii as well as the Freaks proof-of-concept demo. The Freaks demo in particular shows how much of a game changing experience the new controller can be.



It should also be noted that if the U can support the use of two touchscreen controllers that this would mean, during local multiplayer, that you will need your opponent to bring his touchscreen controller to your place as they aren't planning to sell them separately the last we've heard. When they do decide to sell them I can't see them selling for more than the price of a remote and nunchuck combination which people have been quite happy to do for years, despite being more expensive than the average controller. Of course this may change drastically if Nintendo announce haptic technology lol.

Also the use of two touchscreen controllers will mean (assuming that the screen display contains a complex 3D rendering) that the main screen and screen display IQ may have to be downgraded, the same way that splitscreen displays are. However I'm expecting most games to use the touchscreen to show maps, inventories, objectives and tactics when they're using more than one touchscreen.

[Late]

So in summary, you agree the U will be crap?*
Glad we finally got there in the end.

Plenty of rumours about the new Microsoft and Sony machines today. If they're to be believed, both plan on releasing in 2013. The ms is expected to have a blu ray drive (thank gawd) rather than just using digital distribution, but both consoles are still heavily tipped to have anti- piracy and anti- preowned measures with the nextbox touted as requiring a steam-style "always on" internet connection.

There's a lot of talk about the technical side of things, too, but it's beyond my very limited understanding. I don't know what a GPU is (I'll hazard a guess it's a processing unit dedicated to graphics, though), but so long as a console has more of them than the Ninty I imagine it's all good. The Nintendo has only one, right?





* Hate to be the one to back down, as it looks like I'm giving up on my points, whereas the reality is that I'm right but banging my head against a brick wall - but I really can't afford to spend all day arguing with you over this. You've decided the U will be great and won't be swayed. I'm pretty much as neutral as one can be, but lately I find myself focussing more on the negatives on all three next gen consoles. If I seem down on the Nintendo it's only a combination of it seeming to have more negatives, and my posts being countered by a fanboy who'll argue that every negative is a positive. If I mention a shortcoming in the other consoles they're met by the community with more reasoned discussion...

[harv]

I didn't say anything of the sort.

And I think we can safely rule out this rumour of the 720 having 2 GPUs, especially if they're saying they're going to both be 7000 series lololol. Unless of course you want to fork out over a grand for a console lol.

You've also got to consider that they'll probably be including Kinect 2.0 with the console which will have the CPU they removed from Kinect 1.0 bunged back in.

People expecting the PS4 and 720 to be drastically more powerful than the U are going to be very disappointed. Most people aren't knowledgeable enough about hardware to know that Nintendo are making efforts to produce a next gen console with high end hardware. Having a gap in power between the U and PS4/720 comparable to the gap in power between the Wii and PS3/360 is impossible after the confirmations that both IBM and AMD made last year.

The Nerd Rage is going to be hilarious when Sony and Microsoft fanboys realise that next gen is going to be more traditional and similar to last gen in terms of the difference in power between the 3 consoles.

I'd also take this talk of having the 720 always connected to the internet with a pinch of salt too. Whilst internet connections in homes these days is commonplace there will still be casual gamers, who Microsoft are now targeting, that don't have an internet connection. We'll have to wait and see I guess.